Sola Scriptura

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Posts by Sola Scriptura

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  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To AK - Jeff:
  
  You said:
  
  

  Yet, you condemn the Catholic church for the same.

  
  
  
  Yes I criticized the Catholic Church's OLD policy. I applauded the Catholic Church's NEW policy.
  
  
  Although I believe the JW "2 witnesses" Policy is for the most part biblical sound, and thus a good Policy, I however don't think we were completely innocent, due to the inconsistent and unloving way the policy was applied by Elders, C.O.s and The GB at times.
  
  
  That's why we got our butts sued. That's why victims like Big Tex are ANGRY (He should be! His Elders & C.O. didn't handling his case, according to their own policy, correctly).
  
  
  I brought up the OLD Catholic Church Policy to show the differences between our policy and there OLD one, because too many people lump our policy in with their OLD policy. There IS a difference.
  
  
  as I posted earlier:
  
  
  The August 11, 2002 New York Times had this to say about the shape of the JW scandal.
  
  
  "The shape of the scandal [in Jehovah's Witnesses] is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest."
  As you can see, The Catholic Church got in to trouble because a Minority of their Leadership was allowed to prey on trusting young boys, again and again with out any form of punishment.
  
  The JWs got into trouble, mostly for handling accusations of their Rank & File unlovingly.
  
  I applaud the NEW policy changes the Catholic Church have put into place to protect their flock from potential Bad Leaders (like implementing background checks).
  
  But background checks don't help us much with our main problem, because the abuse usually happens, not with an Elder to a child, that's not his own. The problem is usually an abusive Parent, family member or close friend taking advantage of a child, outside of the watchful eyes of the Elders. Tell me how do you make a Perfect Policy to prevent that.
  
  "Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin"™
  Take care AK - Jeff
  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  
  -Martin Luther
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To besty:
  Oh, I forgot to add:
  
  You said:

  Good luck with a reformist agenda in a high control group.

  
  
  Well, you can't get a more high control group then the Catholic Church of Martin Luther's time. And look what he did without the help of the Internet.
  
  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  
  -Martin Luther
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To Besty:

  You said:

  You say that it is a crime and a sin. The letter you quote says its a crime only.

  The letter doesn't need to say it's a sin. The audience it's written to (The Elders) knows it's a sin already. This letter bluntly reminds them that this sin is special in that it is also a crime, and should be handled right.

  How does the current policy allay my fears?

  How can any policy from any organization on this terrible crime allay anyones fears? Fear is parents best weapon against this crime. Never get complacent. Pedophiles are masters of skirting any organizations policy. Parents are the 1st line of defense for their children's protection, and that defense runs better when fed on a healthly amount of fear & suspicion.

  Sidepoint: Why do elders seem to be more appraised of 'the policy' than the rank and file? Why not just publish the darn thing?

  This policy has been published not only to the rank and file, but also to the press. Sadly some JW parents get complacent in the so called "Spiritual Paradise" and forget we aint fully there yet!

  Peace
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To Flipper:

  You said:

  Caesar CAN'T deal with crimes against JW children if idiot elders don't REPORT the offenses to authorities !

  They can if the parents report it. Parents not Elders are the primary ones responsible for their children's wellfare.

  by NOT reporting child molesters to authorities - they prevent God's executioners ( Caesar's law authorities ) from doing their job- it's that simple.

  How so, if the law in their state doesn't require them to report an unsubstantitiated accusation. You would have a point if the Elders witnessed the crime and did nothing. They are only hearing about the crime 2nd hand. Get people in those unreporting states to make it a law, then you will have what you ask.

  And so WHY doesn't the WT society report it FIRST to police ? Because they want to maintain an illusion of respectability to the public

  The WT society just doesn't want their dirty laundry exposed is all it is. Period.

  Isn't that the case with most sexually crimes (rape, incest, child molestation). The victim and those close to victim all to often don't want their case to be exposed to the public (even though they did nothing wrong), that's why sex crimes are vastly under reported (Sad but true stats) in & outside the JW world. Don't always blame the Elders for not doing what many parents won't do.
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To besty:
  
  You said:
  
  

  Interesting choice of username for someone who appears to be defending a magisterium controlled religion.

  
  
  
  Actually it's a perfect choice. Martin Luther initially wanted reform of the church, not separation from the church. There were MANY core church doctrines he agreed with that he would defend to the death.
  
  You said:
  
  

  When will Jehovah's Witnesses stop treating child abuse as a sin and start treating it as a crime?

  
  It is both a Crime & a Sin! That's why my motto to fellow JWs is:
  
  "Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin"
  george11 touched on this earlier when he posted this:
  
  "A 2002 letter to the elders made it quite clear:
  
  "Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. That is, no elder will criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities.""
  
  You said:
  
  

  Jehovah's Witnesses do not neccesarily disfellowship convicted child abusers.

  No they don't.

  The bible advises to disfellowship only unrepeant sinners (even though the term "repentant" is open to much interpretation in the JW world. Ah, but I digress). So no, it is not always automatic. But I guarantee he got "publicly reproved" which is currently the minimum someone can get for child molestation.
  
  What I don't understand is that most people on this board adamantly disagree with JW's disfellowshipping policy, (which I admit is not perfect), but most want Child Molesters to be automatically disfellowshipped even on the accusation of only 1 person. That to me is a contradiction.
  
  So is disfellowshipping wrong or just right for Child Molesters only? (warning! that was a retorical question... I don't want to hijake this tread to start a topic on the unloving evils of disfellowshipping.)

  Pedophiles have been around for thousands of years. (The Greeks thought it was acceptable for an underage boy to have a sexually relationship with an adult mentor). Today Pedophiles have infiltrated every organization on earth that has an abundance of trusting children. (Religion, Schools, Boy scouts etc).This is not a new modern problem. It is an age old problem that modern society is finally trying to eliminate like slavery, abuse of women & torture.
  
  Take Care besty,
  
  P.S.,
  Sorry I haven't responded to everyone. This is not the only discussion board I frequent, so I just don't have the time to respond to all. But I do read all of the comments. Thanks for understanding.
  
  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  
  -Martin Luther
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  To Big Tex:
  
  I'm so sorry to hear how those Elders Gone Wild and that C.O. Gone Wild treated you. If they threatened to DF you for going to the police, they went against not only the GB's specific directions, but also against basic christian principles and basic human decency.
  
  you said:
  
  

  Nowhere in the Bible does Jehovah God demand a child present 2 or 3 or 100 eyewitness to prove they were raped. Show me one scripture that says so.

  
  
  Your right. There is no scripture specifically stating that. But neither is their a specific scripture for every other possible crime or sin that can happen. The "2 witness" rule is a repeated principle, in both the Mosaic Law and Christianity, that is meant to cover ALL accusations of crime & sin not specifically mentioned in scripture.
  
  you said:

  I have never heard, even once, that two complaints by separate victims are sufficient for a judicial committee.

  
  
  Yep it's True
  
  

  I was told these 2 eyewitnesses must be baptized Jehovah's Witnesses

  
  
  Not True
  
  

  Why does the 2 witness rule apply only to child abuse?

  
  
  The "2 witness" rule applies to ALL unsubstantiated accusations of any kind in the JW congregation.
  
  Notice what the JW elder guide book says (originally written in 1977, not long after the Elder arrangement was started, with periodic revisions in 1979, 1981 & 1991) on page 118, on what must be considered before any judicial committee can be formed for any reason:
  
  "The committee should not take action against a person unless the evidence clearly proves this necessary.
  
  Failure to appear before the committee is not in itself proof of guilt.
  
  What kind of evidence is acceptable?
  There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons repeating what they have heard: no action can be taken if there is only one witness.
  Confession (admission of wrongdoing), either written or oral, may be accepted as conclusive proof without corroborating evidence.
  
  Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy... is acceptable
  
  The testimony of youths may be considered...
  
  The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered...
  
  If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident, their testimony can be considered."
  ---
  The GB can't make Elders & C.O.s follow all the directions outlined in their guide book. And I don't want the GB to obtain additional Gestapo like power to enforce their guidelines for the Elders to follow.

  Paul constantly struggled with wayward Elders Gone Wild in his day. Many people where hurt both emotionally & physically by their actions. God for the most part did not directly intervene to stop those wayward Elders (except for the resolution of the circumcision issue after many years). But what God did do, was to inspire Paul to inform the common people via his letters on how All Christians (Elder and Non-Elder) should behave, therefore making wayward Elders accountable, in the eyes of the people, for their actions.
  
  Trust me knowledge is power! Look what Martin Luther did with simple Bible knowledge.
  
  I personally believe & hope the JW "2 witness policy" controversy will be dead in a few years.
  
  Why?
  
  Because the GB has gone on record to the press and to rank & file JWs to say, that it's "OK"
  to go to the Police 1st. The Elders 2nd.
  
  I constantly look for opportunities, to educate all JW parents I come in contact with, of this public fact. Soon any wayward Elder or CO who dares try to imply to JW parents they will be disfellowshipped for going to the police will be laughed at and ignored because knowledge is power!
  
  You said:
  
  

  They simply transferred the offender to new territory.Inconsistent? Not at all. At least the Catholics did not...

  
  
  I know you are hurting, (I can not imagine the pain you must of suffered because I did not walk a mile in your shoes), but please don't try to defend the Catholic Church old policy of handling child abuse.
  
  No offense to Catholics here, (I applaud the Catholic Church's reform of their old policy). But you can't get any more evil than their old policy, which was :
  
  1) Find out via confession or other credible evidence, that one of your Church Leaders is a Active Child Molester
  
  2) Give him some "counseling"
  
  3) Transfer him to another Parish with the same Title, because you think he is now reformed
  
  4) He does it again
  
  5) repeat steps 2-4 until he dies, retires or gets put in jail.
  
  That is the epitome of an Evil Policy. That is the bench mark for how corrupt a church policy can get. Most Non-EXJWs I talk to, admit the imperfect JW Policy doesn't come close to that. So please don't defend the old Catholic Churches policy for any reason. (Old Policy Bad. New Policy better)
  
  you said:
  
  

  Why not let the elders wait, let the police and the courts make the determination? Meanwhile... providing spiritual comfort?

  
  
  This is a contradiction. If the Elders are to wait, (sometimes months for a conviction), for the courts to decide who's telling the truth, then who are they to comfort. The Accuser or the Alleged Perpetrator?
  
  
  In most modern day countries the Defendant is suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around.
  
  
  Please don't get the feeling I think most Children lie about Molestation, on the contrary I personally believe that most children tell the truth about molestation. But there has been, although rare, where a person has been falsely accused of child molestation. (I personally know of such a case, It was emotionally devastating).
  
  In principle, I believe it is wrong for Anyone accused of Anything by 1 person's verbal testimony alone (Adult or Child), to be considered automatically guilty.
  
  Unfortunately, this principle which in turn protects all of us from unsubstantiated accusations, unfairly disadvantages children.
  
  That's why I always tell JWs go to the Police 1st. The Elders 2nd. (Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin.) Even the GB recognizes this right of the Parent as stated in the official letter from the GB to all elders stated earlier.
  
  
  Big Tex, I ask you this respectfully:
  
  Why didn't your mother go to the Police directly?
  
  Did the Elders specifically say to her that she would be disfellowshipped if she did?
  
  Why didn't your Non-JW grandmother and aunt go to the Police? They shouldn't of been afraid of those JW Elders Gone Wild.
  
  Take Care Big Tex,

  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  
  -Martin Luther
• 
  203

  Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles

  by Robert_V_Frazier in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i'm passing this along from someone else on another discussion board.

  the claim of any substantive change in the policy on pedophiles is news to me.

  can anybody verify or falsify this claim?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sola Scriptura

  The two witness rule is evil. It is not found anywhere in the Bible.

  The '2 witness rule' is definitely contained in the Bible...

  Deuteronomy 19 (The Message)

  15 You cannot convict anyone of a crime or sin on the word of one witness. You need two or three witnesses to make a case.
  

  1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message)

  19 Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.

  John 8:17 (Amplified Bible)

  17 In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.
  
  ----
  Elders, often are not equipped, to fully deal with this insidious crime that is degrading the fabric of humanity.
  
  I'm comfortable with our imperfect 2 witness policy for now. I'm am not comfortable with how some Elders Gone Wild hide behind this policy,so as not to get their hands dirty in the messy business of protecting the flock from wolves in sheeps clothing. Some Elders, who I personally know handle the 2 witness rule wonderfully. Others do not.
  
  on page 111 of the Elder guide book it says "strong circumstantial evidence" could be considered. (So victims, go to the police 1st. Get a conviction from Caesar. Then bring that to the Elders as your "strong circumstantial evidence". If that doesn't get them df'd then at least they will be tagged and bagged for the entire congregation to see.)
  
  If an Elder Gone Wild tries to imply Jehovah won't like you for going to the cops, Ignore them because they are not following directions.
  
  In the May 24th, 2002 letter to all Elders, the GB had to remind Elders that "the elders know that if the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. "
  
  The Elder guide book also states that 2 separate witnesses of the same kind of wrong doing on separate occasions could stand together and accuse their perpetrator. (I personally know of a case where this worked perfectly to get a lying no good pedophile disfellowshipped.)
  
  The JW elder guide book also states this on page 93: "Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with extreme thoughtfulness and kindness. Elders should always do what they reasonably can to protect children from further abuse"
  
  TheAugust 11, 2002 New York Times had this to say about the shape of the JW scandal. "The shape of the scandal [in Jehovah's Witnesses] is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest."
  
  Since many, (not all) cases of child molestation in the JW world involve family members or close friends, parents often fail to report to the police out of embarasment. I will not judge them, but in my heart I feel they continue the cycle of abuse.
  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura

  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"

  -Martin Luther
• 
  307

  JW Defenders- Is WTS Right to Insist You Stay Away From these Websites?

  by OnTheWayOut in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i read these threads and there are a few that bend over backwards to say why wts is correct on this issue or that issue.. they act like typical jw's that refuse to acknowledge points that may show that wts is not following the scriptures or that wts goes beyond the scriptures in a way that is not supported by others.. the point could be the blood issue or shunning or whether 1799 or 1914 was the start (or finish?

  ) of the last days or whether there is a faithful and discreet slave class or not.

  i don't want to harp on each point.

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  Sola Scriptura

  Ok OnTheWayOut I'll bite
  
  

  Is WTS right to insist that "true Christians" stay away from websites that debate the Bible and WT doctrine?

  
  
  They don't "Officially" insist, but only strongly suggest. But if they did start to "insist" I would be forced to personally follow, by conscience, the following scriptures:
  
  1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 (The Message)
  
  Don't suppress the Spirit, and don't stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.
  
  1 Peter 3:15 (Amplified Bible)
  
  But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defenseto anyonewho asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
  

  If they are wrong, isn't it possible that they are not spirit-directed?

  
  
  Yes it is possible, that's why we should keep testing, regardless of what some may say. But many of God's greatest servants from the Bible (except Jesus) was "Wrong" about things that were later corrected. (i.e. Circumcision issue lasted years and caused great distress among Gentile Christians)

  if they are wrong, aren't you running ahead of them instead of waiting on Jehovah to reveal new light for you to come to these websites and "save us"

  
  
  No. I'm not here to reveal "new light" or "save" anyone... I'm here to "give a logical defense to anyone who asks" about the "Hope" I voluntarily decided to believe in.
  
  

  If they are right, why are you disobedient?

  
  
  Like I said earlier, They don't "Officially" insist, so I am not technically disobedient. (You know how us JW's love legal loopholes). And if I'm wrong, I'm sure God has bigger sins to forgive me for then this.
  
  
  PS.
  Respectfully directed to Jack Burton:
  
  

  In my years of service as a pioneer and MS, I don't recall the WTS EVER admitting they were wrong.

  
  
  Although I would of like to see them get on their knees (David Style) and rip there suits into, begging forgiveness from God, it did not happen. But I'm OK with the "technical" admittance of guilt "Officially" Published in the March 15, 1980 Watchtower page 17
  
  "5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

  6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date."
  
  also of note is:
  Karl F. Klein (former GB member) said of Rutherford: (located in the footnotes of the Oct. 1, 1984 watchtower pg. 24)
  
  "Regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he once confessed to us at Bethel, “I made an ass of myself.”"

  Agape,

  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  
  -Martin Luther
• 
  51

  Do JW’s qualify as Christ disciples based on John 13:34, 35?

  by Sola Scriptura in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  im a long time lurker first time poster.

  i am an open minded jw who believes in freeness of speech.

  i love my faith and my worldwide brother and sisterhood (even though i see much room for improvement in how things are run).. i thought i would stir things up a bit with the following question:.

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  Sola Scriptura

  To JH:

  When I became a JW' I used to see people ask for money for this or that reason like at bank entraces or grocery stores for charity or any good cause and I used to give some money to them before being a witness, but they told us at the hall NOT to give money to them. That the money we give isn't the solution to their problem. Only the Kingdom will solve all the problems. So from then I felt obliged to listen to the elders and not give anything.

  Wow! That’s ridiculous.

  This is a classic example of “Elders Gone Wild”. Nowhere, and I do mean NOWHERE, is there a JW policy stating that we can’t give to charities (with the exception of religious charities and charities that violate our Christian neutrality ...i.e. “donate to get body armor for our troops” ). I donated money to the hurricane Katrina disaster fund myself. What JW’s choose to do with there money is totally up to them.

  The GB knows of this “Elders Gone Wild” problem and they are consistently telling the CO’s to reign in these wayward Elders. A recent “Elder School” point blank told the Elders that they are not Handling matters, especially Judicial matters, correctly. It also stressed the need for Elders not to interject their opinions into what the Org has giving them to teach the flock.

  This problem is so big, that the Org is going, IMHO, to the other extreme of overly restricting what elders are to say, teach and think. Which in turn creates a Crisis of Conscience for the GOOD liberal and open mind elders, who wish to express themselves more to the congregation. That’s one reason why we see an unprecedented increase of Elders resigning.

  People don’t realize how hard it is right now to be an Liberal Elder. The Conservative Elders are flourishing under this strict system because they are very disciplined and enjoy carefully laid out paths. For a healthy congregation, life, even government, we need a healthy balance of Conservatives and Liberals working together. If all the Liberals give up the “fine fight” we will be in BIG trouble. Stereotypically Conservative Elders bring us order, structure and consistency. Stereotypically Liberal Elders bring us love, joy and new ideas. We need BOTH to survive.

  Sorry for the rant, but this a something I’m very passionate about.

  I was very generous and known to be generous, they didn't respond in kind. I saw no love. I didn't want charity, I wanted to hear brothers say, how can I help you. come, Ill share a cleaning contract with you, or something like that. That didn't happen so I didn't see any love. Then I quit going to meetings.

  That’s sad. But based on your description of the unbalanced leaders of your congregation, I’m not surprised. The Flock usually follows their Shepherd, sometimes over a cliff. And because of them, we lost a ‘salt of the earth’ generous soul like yourself. But know that Jehovah, who looks on in secret, did not forget a single one of your generosities… and HE will repay you in full, just like he did with all of his other mistreated servants of old, as long as you don’t forsake him.

  Agape,
  --------------------
  Sola Scriptura

  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  -Martin Luther
• 
  51

  Do JW’s qualify as Christ disciples based on John 13:34, 35?

  by Sola Scriptura in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  im a long time lurker first time poster.

  i am an open minded jw who believes in freeness of speech.

  i love my faith and my worldwide brother and sisterhood (even though i see much room for improvement in how things are run).. i thought i would stir things up a bit with the following question:.

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  Sola Scriptura

  To JH: Could you please give some evidence to back your point…because as far as I can see, most of our publications as well as the training manual for elders, strongly emphasize loving and caring for the congregation with tenderness…the problem is: individuals don’t always follow that counsel. A very bad habit that has afflicted servants of God throughout the centuries. That’s why we need constant reminders to show love to each other, especially to ones we normally don’t clique with.

  To Tuesday: I feel bad that you never saw the love, because I definitely feel it. How well connected were you to the congregation? (I’m not saying you weren’t, I’m just curious)… many times acts of love get advertised and noticed by few. Where as acts of unkindness get advertised and noticed by many. If we associated with some of the 1st century congregations, that had to be counseled for their lack of love, we might me be inclined to say: “this Jewish sect is a fraud, because I SEE no love here!”. But we know today, that making that assumption based on those bad experiences would be wrong.

  To Finally-Free: It saddens me that you never saw the love either. When I feel I’m not being loved in the congregation, my joy plummets. When that happens my perspective turns from being positive (looking for the good in the brothers and sisters) to negative (looking for the bad, which is much easier to find). The only thing that brings me around is 1) prayer, 2) self reflection, and 3) action. I start “reaching out” to my brothers and sisters…seeing not what they can do for me, but what I can do for them, like helping people move, encouraging the young ones by arranging sports outings and social gatherings, giving a ride, to the store, to a dear elderly sister who can’t drive anymore. I find this formula consistently turns my negative perspective back into a positive perspective, and I start to SEE the love again. I’m not saying you didn’t do this, since I don’t know your situation, but I have found that in some cases, including my own, our lack of positive action = a lack of positive reaction.

  To avidbiblereader:

  But none of us have it totally right. Rather we should be as Christ said, as little children, humbly waiting on our Father to show us just how far off we were, humbly allowing ourselves not to judge others and make hardened rules to hurt those who don't comply. I think some witness are truly living as Christ disciples as others in other religions are trying their best and Jesus will take all that in consideration in his judgment of all of us

  Very good point!

  Thankfully, Jah is more patient then humans and he has allowed us to stumble many times, so we can learn to walk on our own two feet…for in his eyes we are likechildren reaching their terrible two’s.

  Thank you all for your sincere comments.
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  Sola Scriptura
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  -Martin Luther